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Topping from the bottom

The phrase "Topping From the Bottom" is one many people in Lifestlye use. Often as a negative assesment of a submissive's beahavior. In two recent on line discussion groups We have explored what it means and can be about. The most recent discussion was in April on EF NET A channel I have had the honor of hosting before in my Safe Sane Consensual discussion quite some time back. The second is a small group that meets every Sunday On Dal net.

EF NET Discussion: Sun April 18, 1999

DAL NET Discussion Sun Feb 21 18:33:03 1999

Sunday April 18th - 9PM EST

Topping From The Bottom
Speaker Bad

Topping From The Bottom:
What does this mean really? Is it a bad or a good thing? There have been a lot of discussions on this topic and we know our speaker will shed even more light. Join us for an evening with Bad as he works his way through these questions and many more!
Where: #submission_discuss EFNet

<Bad^> The topic is "Topping from the bottom". and before I get into some specific thoughts about it.. I wondered if people have some preconceived notions about the prhase.
* fireNdark will take this opportunity to introduce a man that is blazing new trails in the southwest and the BDSM world.
My friend, my sanity and mentor, Bad^
* fireNdark watch out for that whip, it packs a nasty sting
<Bad^> Oh OKay the whip thang... * Bad^ pulls down a leather whip snapping it several times just to relieve tension. Bad smiles and places it gently back in its hooks. [Bad^ SOUND]
* MzP cringes at the thought ofa whip
<epiphany^> well Sir, i have heard it generally always referred to negatively, and in my mind it seems to be when a sub works to manipulate and run the D/s relationship to fit their own wants, without really being willing to hand over the power that was agreed to be exchanged
<Bad^> Anyone else feel that "Topping from the bottom" is not a good thing?
<fireNdark> I have to admit that you yourself changed my mind about it a little bit Bad.
<torin^> Generally speaking. No, I dont feel it is.
* MzP only tops when she finds a weakness in the Dominant
<Bad^> torin. your ideas about Topping from the bottom before I begin my speechifying?
<na`te> i think it happens to fill a vacuum...
* Bad^ smiles at MzP. we'll get to that in short order.
<fireNdark> topping from bottom seems to have a bad reputation (pardon the pun) I'm curious about it from a teaching standpoint.
<torin^> Well in a serious Top/bottom relationship I dont feel its something that is going to enforce mutual repect and trust. But then I think at times you get caught up in the idea one person has to be the top and the other the bottom. Which can eventually take away from varying in the relationship.
* fireNdark nods
<Bad^> OKay. Topping from the bottom is often construed as something not desireable in a D/s relationship.. Some think it points up a "weakness" in the Dom or "poor traininng" in the submissive. But to fully underestand the Positive role.. it can have in Lifestyle lets look at "type" of relationships for a moment.

<Bad^> D/s = Domination submission. clearly a "power exchange"

S&M = Sadism and Masochism. Not neccesarily ANY power exchange. Hurt me? Yes I will Hurt you. OKay. UM er A little Lower and to the left PLease? Sure thing! See?

<Bad^> So in a pure TOP /Bottom.. ( implying no power exchange) relationship... Topping from the bottom is how players meet needs.
<Bad^> Enter Domination and submission... A place where people add the element of transfer of control.
<na`te> okay, just what IS that?
<Bad^> You will let me tie you and Play you? Yes Sir. You will do what I say? Yes Sir. You will work with
safe words? Yes Sir. ...well there are the limits ( okay elementary and not all encompassing but it works for this purpose)

<na`te> my guy puts me in bondage, but he doesn's order me around... so what are WE???
<Bad^> You are into bondage na`te. The B in BDSM
<na`te> k...
<Bad^> So in a relationship where there is no agreement that things will go only according to ONE person... ( directed exploration).. Topping from the bottom is no biggie. it is one of the tools.

<Bad^> But to find a D/s relationship where Topping from the Bottom is ALSO acceptible.. I have to set the Wayback Machine MrPeabody.
<Bad^> Sherman sets the date and time to when MrBad began collecting toys for his bag and building a trust relationship with a submissive.

<Bad^> I knew I was a Dom... but it took an experienced submissive who was good in feeding back how I was doing.. guiding me. Quite a bit of S&M to develop the D/s.
<Bad^> I needed confidence. I needed to KNOW when a flogger wrapped. I needed to learn not to take back talk and manage the testing that each relationship
experiences to a degree.
<Bad^> so in learning a role or developing a skill... a submissive might "Top" from the bottom.
<Bad^> Those are examples where the control is "shared" or passed back and forth.
<Bad^> there might not even be a concious awareness of it. In some relationships it is quite a natural flowing.
<Bad^> However as we strive to reach a higher level of Domination and submission thicker clearer lines often MUST be drawn.

<wyld_imp> May i ask a question, please?
<Bad^> Please do.
<wyld_imp> Thank You :) When is begging deemed
topping from the bottom?
<wyld_imp> i was told that He would not stand for me topping from the bottom but all i was doing was what i thought was begging.
<Bad^> begging is NEVER topping... in fact it clearly seems to indicate a lower station. It might be annoying to some or forbidden by others. But it is a direct expression of need or desire.
<wyld_imp> thank You :)
<Bad^> Being submissive doesn't mean casting aside your needs.
<Bad^> But it DOES mean deferring to your Dominant the task of deciding what your NEED is compared to what your DESIRE is.

<wyld_imp> oh ... that explains it then!
<Bad^> Some people might have casual one party involvements. But to be submissive and to WORK at power exchange in a D/s relationship often invovles forward motion and nurturing the relationship.

<Bad^> If we look historically at the old leather protocol for a minute. Much of the ritual was taken for military protocol. Respect was the ultimate goal. falling in line and doing as trained was the MINIMUM. Potential Masters would train for years often starting as subs themselves... ( instead of reading a Novel and proclaiming themselves one)
<Bad^> The whole sub culture was shrouded in secrecy and honor and total respect and devotion.
<wyld_imp> Bad, Sir ... was the whole lifestyle taboo?
<Bad^> Today the lifestyle has mutated and there are many strains. It often gives us the feeling that we can concoct our own version of D/s play. Our own rules as it were.
<Bad^> the whole lifestyle echoed a brotherhood many service men returning from World war Two had begun to subscribe to. So leather and motorcycles and honor and rituals all came home but quietly. Yes it was All underground.

<wyld_imp> Then how did anyone get into it?
* fireNdark is reminded of her first thoughts about Doms....older, wiser, jewish and or military background.
<Bad^> Ya had to know someone and go through trial by fire basically if you WERE lucky enough to get a clue.
<wyld_imp> -i- am glad things have changed then ... i don't do "fire" :)
<wyld_imp> i do wonder though, was it easier when it was so regulated and not left up to the individuals?
* fireNdark wonders that same thing.
<wyld_imp> Now, if you are trained by one Dominant and end up with another ... the past training was almost for
<Bad^> Most of us would not "pass muster" by the Old Guard" standards. traditions worth knowing and
respecting.. but NEW GUARD rules of SSC and Safewords begin to take the lifestyle out of back rooms. and
seek to make it more socially tolerable in the larger culture.
<Bad^> There were Gangs or groups. tribes and "colors" . each had/ have their own ways. If you knew
military protocol and could prove yourself. you might be considered.
<Bad^> I would rather move forward I think you have a great topic for another meeting and a more educated
speaker here.

<wyld_imp> But that's what i mean, Bad, Sir ... the rules were consistent.
* wyld_imp hushes.
<Bad^> Yes. they were.
<Bad^> So today we have a life style in transition. Many facets. Pansexual as well as hetro sexual and homosexual. different "flavors" of play. Pony girls to bondage to Pure mental roles. And it is the mental aspect of Domination and submission where the term Topping from the bottom.. gets it's negative spin.
<Bad^> Okay I know there are submissives particularly on line who relish in "needling" their
Dom(mes) no? Fess up here.
<wyld_imp> i use to ... but stopped that when i went rt.
<MzP> define needling
* fireNdark puts her dainty lil ole hands on her big ole hips
<MzP> please
<Bad^> MzP you said earlier.. you TOP from the bottom in a specific instance. Can you expound now?
<fireNdark> MzP, you were tru^ely being needled weeks ago.
<MzP> If I find a any weakness in a Dominant (haha .. thought tru was a needling type) ...I tend to take control...
<MzP> or question any request
<MzP> if I were a true submissive.. I would be termed a "brat" I am sure
<Bad^> brat seems counter to the kinds of relationships where power is really exchanged.
<MzP> last weekend.. I literallly ended up taking a "so-called" Dominant male.. and put him on his knees
<MzP> :)
<wyld_imp> WTG MzP :)
<MzP> :) thanks lisa!
<Bad^> So for some.. D/s is really more of a tug of war rather than a "submission". Often you can find
this on gender lines if you look online.
* MzP would love to find a true Dominant male.. that did not switch.. to see if she can truly be submissive
<MzP> fireNdark.. cannot see Me as a submissive haha
<wyld_imp> Bad, Sir ... does that mean a submissive should never push a little to find out what are the limits of the Dominant?
<Bad^> In a recent live discussion submissives spoke of "testing" Doms to see if they meant what they said or would keep their word or honor the lines they drew. When they would the submissive was reassured. When they would not. the submisive often confessed to feeling insecure in where they had placed their intitial trust.
<fireNdark> you could make a good attempt at it yes, but your heart, soul and survival instincts I don't think would allow you (imho)
<Bad^> pushing is good. But all in real life said they would NEVER consider such "testing" in a public venue lest they bring their Dom(me) shame.
<Bad^> online is a whole different circus.

<MzP> In real life.. I have not met a truly Dominant
<wyld_imp> Bad, Sir ... was speaking of in private, i would never do that in a public setting
<MzP> they insist they are.. but buckle quickly
<Bad^> Many here seem to thrive on the electricity of the "bad sub" who "needs correction" impish social play. Misbehaving to get attention.
* wyld_imp raises an eyebrow at the "impish" part.
<fireNdark> LOL
<wyld_imp> hmpht
*** wyld_imp is now known as wyld_one
* raianna giggles..
<fireNdark> In the past I have seen that behavior in channel and cringed at it.
<wyld_one> That's where i distinguished the difference between IRC and rt ... for me, i never was the imp in rt when in training. Online, yes ... rt, never
<Bad^> MzP. it seems you would find it hard to submit or offer trust to someone ( male as you put it) lest he not meet all your expectations. I wonder about the gender refrences and I agree a submissive should be VERY careful about who he or she chooses to work with . But there are safewords and ways to advance or retard a relationship. It doesn't all have to succeed or fail on one acid test.
<MzP> That's the one.. the trust factor..
<fireNdark> If I want a good spanking r/l or cyber....I ask for it and have several friends who are willing to oblige.
* MzP is a product of an abusive marriage... is difficult to trust
* MzP spanks her LOL
* raianna looks at MzP..understanding :)
<Bad^> MzP. the difference between an abusive backround and D/s play is you DO have control as a bottom.
<Bad^> You can CHOOSE your partner carefully and you can demand safewords safe calls and safe sane conseual rules before you engage.
<MzP> it is the not play I guess that I don't trust.. it is the truly giving of myself as a submissive...
<Bad^> Or you can just set out to prove that ALL men are assholes. ( we are an easy target actually)
<MzP> I dont think that Bad^ :)
* wyld_one stifles her giggle.
<Bad^> Being a submissive isn't something you "learn". It is a feeling in your heart.
<MzP> oh god.. I know that feeling.. I was raised submissive being in the south..
<Bad^> But those who are feisty or constantly testing or demanding attention from mis behaving also have the potential to become deeper submissives. they just allow fears needs or poor or no training to interfere.
<wyld_one> Bad, Sir ... as in breaking of the will?
<Bad^> ( pssst females are an easy target too < wink> ) But why fight on gender lines when we can be hugging?
<Cisur> can i ask a question?
<Bad^> breaking will is something you do to a horse. People have far more baggage and emotions and history associated with relations.
<Bad^> Allow me to offer one more model Cisor...
<Bad^> Then I will take your question...
<Cisur> ok
<Bad^> I have a submissive who misbehaves. Doesn't follow a directive to pay a bill. or refuses to put THREE ice cubes in my drink or whatever...
<Bad^> Maybe puts a whoopee cushion on another Doms chair ( for you on line junkies)
<Bad^> I have several courses of action as his/her Top.
<Bad^> ONE: this is the nature of our relationship. I have permitted such behavior in the past. I expect it or can deal with it and do nothing or go through the motions of " correction" since it is part and parcel of our " play".
<Bad^> TWO: I can seriously reprimand the submissive. the failure to comply causes finacinal hardship embarrassment or in the cas e of the ice.. poor attention to service and detail to pleaing me. I can bring down some form of "correction".
<Bad^> The way "I" deal with it... failure to comply in my stable. results in no attention.
<Cisur> ok well now for my Q
<Bad^> If you don't pay the bill.. I will tend to it or reassign it to another. If there are two ice cubes... you will not be permitted to serve again until you acknowledge the error and explain WHY it occured...
<Cisur> douse anyone here think that submissives are basically self distructive
<wyld_one> Cisur: no
<fireNdark> no, far from it
<raianna> no way
<Bad^> and in thecase of the whoppee cushion.. You might ot be permitted to be on line or attend the next meeting. I will not tolerate embarassment.
<Cisur> but they give over responsibility to others a risky venture surely
<Bad^> Cisur... if they were SELF destructive they would drive off the bridge! Lol
<Cisur> and with a true sub this behavior is pathalogical
<wyld_one> Cisur: You missed the part about trust
(wasn't here or wasn't paying attention)
<fireNdark> Cisur, you have a history with obsessive subs?
<Bad^> So back to the topic Topping from the bottom....
<Cisur> maybe but i did hear some discusion about subs deliberatly failing
<fireNdark> :)
<Cisur> no worse luck *smiles*
<wyld_one> Bad, Sir ... so You are saying that a submissive purposely acts up -to- get attention so You deal with it by not giving any attention, is that correct?
<Bad^> expressing a need/desire in an appropriate way and time.. is much more effective.
<wyld_one> *nods*
<Bad^> A good Dominate will know what levels of attention his Her sub require.
<Bad^> As I said... much earlier. if you give yourself over to one you think you can trust.. you will have to allow him/ her to try to assess what you NEED against what you WANT.
<Cisur> still the sub risks losing there personality
<Cisur> risks being reconstructed
<wyld_one> Cisur: not so at all
<wyld_one> submissives are not Stepford Wives

[Bad^ loses connection here]
<Cisur> they can be which is my point about self
destructive elements in subs
<Cisur> the re ordering of the self by another persons
<wyld_one> Bad, Sir ... If the submissive does not know her / his own needs (only their wants) ... how does
the Dominant know? Trial and error?
<Cisur> unless of course you believe in the paradox that it is indeed thwe dom whois being controlled
*** Bad^^^ () has joined #submission_discuss
<MzP> wb Bad :)
<Bad^^^> Actually I have seen many people who have found security in their role...
More self esteem a better sense of who they are and what the lines are.

wyld_one> welcome back Bad, Sir ... i will repost my question
wyld_one> Bad, Sir ... If the submissive does not know her / his own needs (only their wants) ... how does the Dominant know? Trial and error?
<Bad^^^> MzP spoke of coming from abuse. Do you not enjoy the stability of safe sane consenusal play
this lifestlye offers MzP?

<MzP> Yes I do
<MzP> when I find it :)
<Bad^^^> My submisive may want a steak. I know she NEEDS healthy nourishment.
<Cisur> you presume rather
<Bad^^^> So Top or bottom the order, regime and safety of mainstream D/s actually can be liberating.
<Cisur> liberating from what?

<fireNdark> specialy if you offer a chicken for main course and a few bites of steak for dessert
<Bad^^^> you are topping from the menu now firendark.
<fireNdark> ;)
<fireNdark> or the Sahara, depending on my spelling.
<Bad^^^> Cisur. a town has a major intersection.... And as the population grows it becomes more difficult to get across it.
<wyld_one> i was speaking more of ... when the submissive wants comfort and the Dominant choses to ignore
<Bad^^^> Town fathers erect a traffic light. Rules and guidelines now permit safe passage.
<Cisur> subs are always wanting comfort the comfort of having no responsibility
<MzP> that isnt always true Cisur
<wyld_one> no responsibility? How long have you been
involved in D/s, Cisur?
<Bad^^^> If a submissive WANTS comfort.. there is a good chance she NEEDS comfort. If the Dominant is not filling the need... time to re contract or find a better top . submission is a GRANTING of one's self not sealing one's fate.
<Cisur> no long term responsibility for themselves im talking about there psyches not wether they have to have the washing up done on time
<wyld_one> Cisur: a submissive has a lot of responsibility and the -main- one is to please his / her Mistress / Master
<Bad^^^> Cisur the minute you lump all subs and relationship into one wash tub... you are libel to make gross generalizations and sterotypical errors.
<Cisur> and the manner in which the sub douse that is
determined by the dom
<Bad^^^> But they also have a responsibility to find a Dominant who IS compatible and to end a relationship ( withdraw submission) if NEEDS aren't being met.
<Cisur> its the doms resposibility
<wyld_one> Cisur: again, i ask ... how long have you been involved in D/s?
<Bad^^^> I can see we are going into open debate on the pathology of submission according to Cirus. thank you for your time tonight.
<Cisur> how douse the sub know what there needs consist of acording to Bad thats the doms job
<wyld_one> Bad, Sir, please continue ... /ignore works wonders :)
<Bad^^^> Cisur ( my apology mythical abboration)
<psyche> it's the submissive's job to tell the Dom what he/she is thinking
<epiphany^> please Sir, i am truly interested in what you have to say on the topic
<psyche> open communication
<laur^el> i wish to continue with the topic ... if that counts at all
<Bad^^^> We are almost done and my time is limited.
I shall continue on the topic. TOPPING from the bottom.
<Bad^^^> Agreed?

<MzP> agreed
* psyche nods and listens
<fireNdark> yes sir
<wyld_one> yes Sir!
<epiphany^> yes Sir, agreed
* laur^el listens quietly again
<Cisur> crawling subs uuuurrrk
<Bad^^^> OKay.. so here we had a real life exam of a behavior that was unwarranted.
*** Cisur ( has left
<fireNdark> ROFL
<Bad^^^> Cisur is wanting to manuever the conversation to his own agenda.
<Bad^^^> And the advice I am given is.....
<Bad^^^> /ignore works wonders :)
* P^Man grins
Bad^^^> And so it has.
<Bad^^^> Either the submissive. LEARNS or finds other places to play.
<MzP> (not to mention the broomstick I was lubing for him)
<Bad^^^> You are part of a "splinter" group for sure MzP rofl
<MzP> haha :)
<MzP> thanks.. i think
<fireNdark> ohhhhh man, y'all are Bad!
<epiphany^> no there is only one Bad^
<fireNdark> very true epiphany

<Bad^^^> OKay. Now. I have ranted and raved and fought to keep control here for a while. Bona fide
questions about what is good or Bad Topping from the bottom and how to deal with it?
<P^Man> there is "good" topping from the bottom?
<Bad^^^> Yes. at the start of this discussion which I trust wil be posted soon.. we spoke of S&M without power exchange. and experienced subs who help "guide" new Doms. A third example is when such "impish" behavior is PART of the contracted or expected play.
<KttN> yeah, i have a question about Dom Drop... lets say this happens and depression hits the Dom, how do
recommend the sub bring it back to focus?
<P^Man> ahhhh.... this makes sense
<Bad^^^> We also spoke of who it is real that a submissive sometimes needs to know there are FIRM limits. but in real life this sort of "testing" and confirming need never happen in public lest it bring the dominant shame or embarrassment.
<KttN> she could be accused of topping
<Bad^^^> When a Dom loses his interest in his role or suffers from DOM Drop... as you call it. He is still responsible to the relationship even if he present. ( he/she humor me here)
<KttN> i am with you
<Bad^^^> It becomes imperative for the sub and dom to sit and reevaluate their roles. Sometimes as in the death of one nearby... all roles might be suspended while one or both mourn. In the case of an employment crisis or other De- Domming affliction... re- negotiation or re-alignment is also part of the cure.

<Bad^^^> I personally rarely go into my own dungeon these days. Having just come from a tailspin of work with three submissives who are growing in leaps and bound. I have concerns about becoming the endorphin "Pusher" and also want other aspects of my roles with them to be more solid before I do the heavy play again. Dom Drop perhaps.. but never shirking my responsibility to those who have agreed to trust me deeply.

* P^Man nods
<fireNdark> re-alignment I like that. Sounds better than a "swift kick in the ass".
<Bad^^^> none the less. submitting to someone doesn't mean you toss out your rights to regularly re-evaluate who you both are and what you both want.

<Bad^^^> Now int he case of Advanced relationships. In real life this would include slavery, contracts, and SERIOUS collarings... the trust HAS been given over. a situation of DOM DROP would have to be referred back to the contract to see if terms were violated.

<KttN> thank you
<Bad^^^> questions?
<laur^el> none from me but thank you all for the interesting discussion ...

<fireNdark> a comment. Topping from the bottom, it can be good or bad....depends on the individuals
<Bad^^^> Yes. the definition of the relationship is Key. even those who seek attention here on line may well be in the bounds of their "relationship" but keep in mind the original tenants of honor and respect in this lifestyle as you grow and explore.

<epiphany^> and depends on the relationship of those individuals, and can be in flux a lot as with other areas of a relationship

<Bad^^^> Thank you so much for attending tonight.
<fireNdark> Thank you for coming tonight sir.
<Bad^^^> I'd love to shamelessly plug my web site

<wyld_one> thank You Bad, Sir!
<fireNdark> go right ahead


<Bad^^^> The Whipping Post / ChainLinks

<epiphany^> THank you Sir, it was wonderful, and informative
<P^Man> I wish I would have made the beginning of this :)
<psyche> thank you Bad, Sir :)
<P^Man> ( btw, I will retrieve the log of this and post it to the list.... for anyone who wants a copy
<P^Man> )
<Bad^^^> I look forward to future chats here. I see some heavy hitters on the calendar coming up. And I'd love
to return again as a host more frequently than Haleys

Comet! < wink>
* fireNdark dons her editing tools and gets busy on it.
<Bad^^^> With Kttn's permission I will also post the log to my site.
<laur^el> would someone post the addy of the calendar?
<KttN> that would be great Bad:) i can think of a million topics i would like see discussed
<KttN> please do
<Bad^^^> The calendar is
<laur^el> thank you Sir
<Bad^^^> Places to go People to Dom. Bad^ dreams ladies. thanks again fireNdark
<fireNdark> my friend :)*
<epiphany^> night night all
<u4ea{BD}t> is it already over *pout*
<laur^el> thank you again ... night all
<MzP> we'll have a log of it euphie :)

<fireNdark> that's a wrap folks.

A BDSMFriends channel discussion

Session Start: Sun Feb 21 18:33:03 1999

*** Now talking in #bdsm_discussion #bdsm_discussion url is

hiya Falcan :) hi TXKajun
* rianne smilesssss evening Kajun Sir *hug/kiss* hello
TXKajun hello Falcan Sir hi all :
Falcan, Bad is a local Dom........rianne knows him........Bad.....rianne is cindy. :)
Bad thanks. hiya

Bad^ bows politely.
* TXKajun waves hi to da impster! :) welcome Bad :) a friend of rianne and Kajun is certainly most welcome here

the Topic is a broad one....but if i could to try to put concisely, the phrase "Topping from the Bottom"... *

* Falcan holds his slave tightly to him and listens > i supposed it would be along the lines of "a sub/bottom willfully maniuplating to their advantage" *

TXKajun nods at topic choice......gathers his thoughts. is that the same thing as Sammy behavior?

> as i said, the boundaries are broad and vary from one Dom/me to another

> i'm not positive me, a Sam is a bottom...but perhaps...input? hmmmmmmmmm, another thing to "topping from da bottom" always a bad thing??

Bad^:Topping from the bottom. it has a negative connotation but it need not be. *g* Take for example the situation of a new Top or Dom. learning his way. If he has an experienced sub or bottom he may get a lot of guidance at first form the sub or bottom.

* TXKajun nods. that should be discussion, not negative behavior to get attention

> i agree...maybe just depends on the timing also...whether it's communication or not?

Bad^: In a pure Sad- Masochistic relationship where the agreement is "Hurt me/ OKay I'll hurt you...." there is NO exchange of power. The person UNDER the Sadist can still offer direction and preferences. Topping from the Bottom.

I agree with what Bad said .. after all it is about both the top and the bottom getting the most out of the expirience too
* lil^imp{FAL} puzzles over that last statement from Bad, Sir

Bad^: However when you move into the realm of Domination and submission when there is a giving ov er of power or an agreement to exchange control... Topping from the bottom might be as innocuous as SAM behavior or considered negative when in violation of the agreement.

hugs imp imp what puzzles you?

* rianne listens...thinks...the bottom can _always_ offer input to though? the line about no exchange of power in the sadistic relationship I think that there is Always except in perhaps a long range " slave" contract". but maybe it's just semantics....

* lil^imp{FAL} listens

Bad^: I play with subs, slaves, and bottoms. in r/l. There is one who loves to be hit but will NOT call me Sir or do or act out ANY thing subservient. She likes pain.

Not role play. perhaps in a Total Power exchange relationship .. which seems rare and a lot to attain > she's totally masochistic and you're gracious enough to indulge her,

Sir..understand that completely but isn't there still an exchange of power there....she's giving you control for that period of time...and you are accepting it So is SAM behavior Topping or just testing?

> imho, i'd a Sam is testing.......trying to top from bottom is also to a degree..pushing those fences maybe? I think SAM behavior is a kinda plea for a negative way.

I agree Kajun, Sir >

ok, what about when the submissive uses that kind of behavior?

there is also bottoming from the top

Bad^: Some relationships seem to depend on this sort of play. the bad girl the mean principal or daddy.

* Pendar^ listens

but isn't that an either covertly or overtly agreed upon role-play/scenario?

> i think one can try to Top from bottom in a scene and in a relationship both Yes it IS but what does it APPEAR to be?

* rianne smiles and welcomes all joining the discussion what do you mean Bad? hi viansa and, Bad......also, how is it accepted? as helpful feedback? or as smartass "is dat all ya can do" comments?

Bad^: If a couple agrees to do the Bad girl / Mean Man scene.. it i may be contracted. It may be even rehearsed. To those present she may SEEM to be insolent.. but since it was contracted it is part of the play. She mis behaves and "earns" her spanking.

in Screw the Roses it's pointed out the the power flows up from sub to Dom in power exchange relationships.

* Pendar^ listens

Bad^: well power in elextrical terms is Plus and minus. In fluid terms it is pressure and vaccum. In role play it is sub and Dom neither exists without the other.

> maybe/maybe not, but when a sub decides to "give over" that try to wrestle it back and do it in wrong fashion.

it also says in screw the roses under the flying section that the sub is the space shuttle and the Dom is pilot ri.........if it is truly done in "wrong fashion"........then needs to quickly and firmly be nipped in da bud.

LOL ohhhhhh bud nippin' mmmmmmmmmmmmm :)) send me the thorns :)

> nods agreed Sir...but isn't that the basic term of trying to Top from Bottom?

* lil^imp{FAL} shssssshs but if da sub is giving "feedback"........kinda like a radar screen.....then, is good.

Ok... I can safely say (as a woman who enjoys these "bad girl" scenes from BOTH sides... ) *eg* not to mention the extensive discussion of lemon juice soaked gags, but that's another night. That is why I call it a test.

Bad^:Topping from the bottom against a verbal or non verbal agreement isn't respectful. This lifestyle is founded on respect more so than vanilla relationships. I won't play with someone who shows irreverance or unpreditcibility. A good submissive slects a top and works to please.

* rianne grins at Falcan...and here i thought my view of pilot/co-pilot was original if the sub is making a game of it to try to consciously wrest control convertly all the time it is not in the best interest of both parties having thier needs and wants met to me that is topping from the bottom or, Falcan, it is a silent/subliminel request for more control from da Top. that I dont enjoy

* Pendar^ smiles learning hearing the intersting, thougtful comments at some point that would be apparent

Kajun, Sir......why wouldn't the bottom just ask for her/his needs to be met in open communication?

.cuz it's scary.....having to admit, out loud, additional needs/wants/ times, at least.

* je^nelle enters quietly and sees Bad^ ... smiles to herself ... approaching and kneeling beside Him ... waiting to be recognized

* rianne grins that awful "C" word granted....but scary is not disrespectful scary to admit da needs to yourself if you're a bottom, at times.

> nods nods

Bad^: Often we don't identify our needs. Often people revert to familiar behaviors. Often a sub needs to know the Dom is sharp and savy and WILL keep control. The testing of limits is an important part of relationship growth.

hmmmmm I have instructed my slave to suggest things she's interested in, since I'm not a mind reader and I want to have her pleased, since I enjoy her when she's happy. However, I still feel like I'm controlling things, since she takes her instructions from Me.

and it's easier to just "test" da Dom's limits/committments than say things out yourself and/of da Dom/me.

> i agree, sometimes the trying to manipulate or Top from Bottom then maybe a need for more structure?

do other subs/slaves here feel that it's easier?

I agree with Pendar .. that making a suggestion is never considered topping from the bottom

> unfortunately, i think it's human nature...easier than talking push a bit Falcan, I'm glad she does, becuase she comes up with some great stuff and we have a blast with it. :-)

* Bad^ smiles at je^nelle and pats his lap. ( A rare thang)

otherwise one might miss that ;) i just feel that to be in a D/s relationship..that it's the responsibility of the parties involved to work for the happiness and pleasure of the other..communication and respect is the mainstay of a relationship like that..

* rianne smiles at je^nelle..evening exactlly and you wind up with an unhappy sub.

* je^nelle rises ... glowing with a smile thinking rare indeed and slips onto Bad^'s lap

Topping indicates taking control. contracting or safewording or asking is not taking control it is defining control. However, it's not my "job" to keep her happy, she serves Me. that the exchange between the two is neither bad nor good... it just is... we should not judge that type of play any more than we judge others.

* rianne re-reads Pendar's it not better to a mutual thing?

thank you LdyStarrfyyr :))))

rianne, say that again, please? I don't follow

* Pendar^ reads Bad^'s comments with interst >

glad to, you said it's not your "job" to keep her happy, she serves You and frankly *I* don't know that there's a Dom that I *trust* to Top me.... therefor topping from the bottom is what I'm relegated to.... or Topping from the top. I feel it is the Tops resonsiblilty to enable it so that both persons needs can be met through open communication and commitment in the relationship .. I do wish for my slave to *serve* me and I enjoy a slave who finds happiness in that seervice

> i have to disagree to a strong point unhappy sub won't be around long...

* lil^imp{FAL} snuggles lovingly against her Master Falcan, I could not have said it better

> now if you meant to find the level of D/s that pleases you both, different matter

I agree Falcan, but when a sub has no other outlet.... sometimes it becomes necessary to Top a sub into pretending to be Top.

that's more it rianne, it's about exploring BDSM and D/s living.

Bad^:I'd like clarification on a point please an unhappy sub may have a lot of work to do. I find many subs unhapy when they realise service often means developing patience and waiting. But if they are true to their desire to please.. the learn to wait. They learn patience. an un happy sub who puts her own desire out in front is not really a sub is he/she? I want her happy and fullfilled, but her place is serving me.

ewwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!! da terrible "P" word, Bad!

> what's that imp? lol Kajun. lol

> right up there with that "C" word uh huh, ri. :)

seems like ti it we're sorta talking about some testing behavior being not conscious....just an action. If that's the case, who is to truly say it is testing in a negative manner?

Bad^, I couldn't agree more. I have tested my slave's patience hi concorde and my own, naturally *eg*

> testing in pushing limits of patience?

yes, rianne > i'm sorry, my question was to that what you mean sis?

Bad^: IF it doesn't compy with the Doms needs and expectations. if it brings shame or ill will.. if it dis empowers the Top... THAt would be negative.

not really rianne....seemed from how I read the information that it was a general statement ..not specifically about patience bbl

* TXKajun thinks we're getting real close to da "T" word now......Trust. another biggie Trust

Bad^:There it is. The submisive works to trust the Dom will take care of all within their agreement. The Dom trusts that the sub is working to please him or her ( If that is the agreement) If I, for example, came on only to find my sweet je^nelle here having ired all the other Doms or behaved poorly and with disrespect. She would lose my trust. If she stuck her tongue out at me or did something Topping from the Bottom like " Chase me " ( She would never) THAt would not bode well. Trust to me is based on respect Trust is violated.

that is the desired goals Bad :)

if those are not being met some work needs to be done in my opionion

* rianne looks at imp...sis, you brought this up in chnl the other nite and was a good point..

Bad^: the next issue is... how do you HANDLE "negative" topping from the bottom? ( and let me tell you sometimes it can be subtle and hard to identify.)

please go on with that Bad > is the playful, mischevious at times sub always considered naughty? or just playful...not to be taken in a bad sense

* rianne hushes and let Bad Sir finish

Bad^: In the game playing scenario we have all seen ad naseum on line.. the sub misbehaves and awaits her Tops punishment. In real life it is not so simple. Many subs at a meeting yesterday revealed they might back talk or challenge their r/l partners privately from time to time. but NEVER publicly.

Bad - you are talking about actualy misbehaviour and not "scene" behaviour, correct?

evenin rianne

So there is often a modicum of respect.

thanks for the warm reception :)

Bad^:I am talking about inappropriate non contracted behavior.

ty > ahhhh...there's the line Im my own realm.

Bad^:I often give the sub or slave enough rope to stretch across an ocean. I NEVER respond predictibly to questionable behavior. it is the nature of subbies to be somewhat "fiesty" from time to time Pendar

Bad^, it can be so subtel and the challenge is to the judgement of the Dominant.

Bad^:If one in my domain goes out on a limb I stand there silently and watch. the words echo. the gesture seems foolish within a minute. I have only had to deal with discipline in one instance in my time as a Top.

lol Lion^ it is human nature to be feisty at some point or another!

* TXKajun listens quietly.

she's be living with me in the next few months and we are together r/t very often, almost to the 24/7 level. Yes, I agree, each must run thier own show

Bad^: Fiesty is fun.. I was beating my bottom friend two weeks ago.. with a palm wicker sort of thing we call a Judy switch. It was getting more intense and with one blow she pulled way forwad on the chains shrieked and declared..... hi TXKajun :-)))))))))

the true punishment may not be from something defined by the top .. but in the knowlege the slave/sub has disappointed or brought shame on the Master

* rianne grins...she call red, Bad?

* lil^imp{FAL} looks up to her Master.....her eyes filled with emotion

Bad^: " I am NEVER buying Rattan furniture again!" I fell into a laughing jag for a solid minute we both were laughing so hard. Then I resumed ( worse than before) there is plenty of room for fun and feisty just don't embarass your Dom{me} > LOL

* Falcan huggles his slave tightly Falcan.........I think a submissive can punish her/himself MUCH worse than a Dom/me ever could!.....mostly from knowing their Top has been very displeased!

* lil^imp{FAL} cuddles closer exactly Kajun My girl has devastation comes to mind's not only from knowing the Top is is knowing how deeply that can penetrate, invade the Trust

* Falcan wonders if there is any wicker sales in todays paper and at times cause the beloved Top pain Trust is a fluid thang.

Bad^ have you Owned a slave long term?

Bad^:In that I mean.. in any given relationship.. at any given time. the tide can be in or out. Always like the sea.. in motion. let me see if I understood correctly: you're indicating that trust isn't a constant I would agree with that, in that it constantly has to be refined/earned....cannot be taken for granted.....butonly in those terms Many folks see trust like a destination. Something you ratchet closer too all the time. While we all wish to have trusting relationships. it is good to realise we are all human. Our own fears can work at eroding trust or someones gallant gesture can restore trust. See?

a raltionship to me is a living thing and has different growth spurts, need for judicious prunning, firtilization, even transplantation to new containers.

well said, Pendar! thanks TXK well said Pendar :) BTW, I don't treat her like a potted plant either LOL *

Bad^: So the behaviors in a relationship need to be analysed from time to time. IF there is Topping from the bottom is it time to re negotiate? Is there a distance in trust? boredom?

hiya lil imp..:) * rianne nods slowly...agreeing with Bad rianne

Bad^: It isn't enough to smack a label on the behavior and demand better behavior. A Dom is given authority and with that comes responsibility. Find out what the behavior is about. Don't reward it with attention but don't ignore the need to re evaluate.

yanno.....there's also, for some, the reverse: bottoming from the Top so what are some ideas on how to recognize and hnadle topping from bottom behavior

*** shenlee is now known as lil^bear^

Bad^: Falcan........I think first and foremost, communicate expectations and requirements......openly and 2-way...... Well if dialog from the sub contains.. I want or I need... the Dom radar should go up!. A Good dom will sort outr the difference between what a sub WANTs and NEEDS.

Perhaps there is innocent Topping from the Bottom, where past beahvours from vanilla conditioning are unlearned and repleased with My rules and D/s commitments.

Trust has to be in place too and be clear on BOTH partners' wants/needs/desires.

Yes Pendar. there' s much of that. Hence the need for good radar to re train. communication :) discussion before scening

> trust....also in that the sub won't feel wrong if she speaks those needs openly, honestly and in the right time

Yes, Bad, I see those things as opportunities for further training and deepening of her understanding of how to serve me and what my wants and desires are.

absoloutely rianne

Bad^:As someone said yesterday. " I NEED" nourishment. I WANT Chocolate cake" and an understanding that in the midst of a discussion, the use of "need" is often replaced with "want".... lol!

exactly, Bad! ^5's! I have found when my little one makes suggestions it has enhanced the scen and our mutual pleasure lol Bad

Bad^: Suggestions are not Topping they are pre sceen negotiations. Big difference.

cheesecake taste but meat and potatoes budget

Bad^: How about the subs here tonight. Confession time. how have you tested your Doms in the past?

is it being said that to 'want' is inappropriate??????????

Bad^: Expressing desires is great. Manipulating to accquire them is not submissive.

not that at all little one My wonderful love overcomes her Topping impulses right before my eyes

the sub demanding something is very inappropriate

That is total Magic to watch

* rianne clears her throat, not except that time i played sick and then DID get sick...punishment in itself but above, Bad, Sir you indicated that A good Dom will sort out the difference between what a sub "wants" and "needs", that made me believe you were saying they are entirely separate lol!

a lesson to be learned there, rianne!

I like her suggestions for scenes and things, since not using her mind would be so foolish since it's one of her greatest gifts.

Bad^: Yes. my sub whines that she isn't getting hit enough. I have to decide is she doing an addiction thing on the endorphins or is she just saying she wants more one on one attention of ANY kind.

* rianne nods solemnly at Kajun..yes Sir..don't eat at India Gardens again *g* either rofl!
what if she just wants more smacks....plain and simple?
what if she wants it but he wont give it..cause he dont like it?

> nods at imp...sometimes it's hard when you want more/something different

prezactly, sis

Bad^: Well those who know me and have seen me play know I am attentive and usually send a submissive deep. If she requires MORE it means often something else is going on. But you can tell your Top in the processing AFter the scene for the next time if he left you wanting or missed the mark.

Bad^: Again what she or he "Wants" is less important that what pleases the Dom i most relationships of a D/s nature. If the Dom consistantly misses the subs needs. She revokes her submission No?


I don't find "topping from the Bottom" so much in scenes, but more in the dynamics of the relationship. To me that's more where it lives, but that's just my personal experience.

gosh I would hope not

* rianne notice how often in ANY discussion of BDSM,we always come full circle to that nasty "C" word:communication I would hope they'd communicate and work it out before that *g*

yeppers, rianne!

* Falcan grins its a heavey and it's not even yer brother, Master :)

well all, thanks for participating in Discussion.. thank you rianne :)))))))

My submissive is very bright, but I have told her, "I won't argue about this." and she broke thru to a new place and felt wonderful. anoter great discussion !!!!! :)))

Bad^: In a scene there should be good prescene communication. Health saftey whims and desires. Aversions and special kinks language permitted words to avoid. During the scene. Safe words. A sub who wants More might even engotiate "green" to "assist" the Dom not Top him. After the scene some good down time afterglow or nurturing. and a day or so later what I call Processing time. Yep communication A to Z.

are we wrapping up?

> i'm happy to say that Bad has tentaveily (sp) agreed to Host in the future :))

great !!!! Well done, Falcan, rianne, imp. :)

kewl >

Kajun and i both know him from the Eros and HPEP groups here in Houston.. good to see you here Kajun :)))

Bad^, you still have your great web site up?

what????????/ Bad??????/ fer true?????? kewl! > and he has alot of info to share with us :))

BAd^: I'd be honored. it is a good bunch here, intelligent and tolerant minds and views!

> we try, Bad Sir..we try :))

thanks Kajun :)

great to have you here tonight it's needed

* rianne smiles...yes indeed it was Kajun *g*

thanks Bad for your interesting outlook and input :)) thanks all for participtaing :))))

*blush* awwwwwwwwwww, thanks, ya'll. :)

nice to meet you Bad, Sir :) every Sunday same time :))

rianne? what time does the Sunday discussion usually begin? > they begin here most, we try for every Sunday at 6:30 CST

> if you have a topic you'd like to hear about, just email me..i coordinate the discussions: 7:30 EST? (forgive me if i don't know the time zone differences LOL)

> lol, no problem...yep 7:30 Florida, East coast time

rianne parts...going back to all please join :)

Session Close: Sun Feb 21 20:14:36 1999

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